Cait: Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of The Born To Rise Podcast. I am so excited for you guys to meet my amazing guest today the badass copywriter of all badass copywriters, Mackenzie B Fleming, Mackenzie, thank you so much for being here.

Mackenzie: Thank you for having me. I’m so stoked to be here.

Cait: Oh my god, it is such a joy to have you on here because I love jamming. If you listen to this show yourself, which I think you do on all the different things business, there are so many things to talk about sales, team, mindset, all the things. But Hello what is more important than building your empire than words? So can you talk to us about how you transitioned into the entrepreneurial space, you are a copywriter from past iterations? Talk to us about how you came into this world Mac and what your role really is?

Shifting Niches

Mackenzie: Yeah, so I’ve always done copywriting I went to school and got my BA in professional technical writing. So it kind of just flowed, I was a copywriter in corporate life at a fortune 500. And I’m such a nerd. I would go home from work every day. And I’d be like, that was not satisfying. I want to keep writing. So I started almost right away, like freelancing. And I, weirdly enough, got into b2b tech business to business technology as my first niche. And because everyone was saying that’s where the money’s at. So I’m like, cool. I don’t know what else I do. So let me do that. And then, oddly, I just kept attracting coaches, online coaches, fitness, motivational speakers, stuff like that. And I was like, well, these are the people I actually very much enjoy working with and vibe with. So let’s do that instead.

Cait: I love that so much. And I think it’s so cool how our journeys can take us from one niche to another. And it just sounds so perfect that this is the place that you ended up and are supporting. So so many women with writing their words and being the voice that really says what they’re trying to say, in a better way and in more than way than they could do themselves. 

One of the things that I wanted to talk about today on the show and illuminate for our listeners is what the hell it really means to develop a brand voice because I think that this is a term that we hear tossed around. We hear like, tell your brand stories or write in your brand voice or make sure that your voice is irresistible. Make sure your copy connects and converts blah, blah, blah. But I think that –for not just people who are new, but people who are maybe running a business already, but feeling like their copy isn’t really popping — what is it about the brand voice that is so important to actually make the content that we’re putting out there actually start to work for us?

Why You Need To Nail Your Brand Voice

Mackenzie: Yeah, absolutely everything we have, our speaking voice just like audibly and you can’t really change that. It’s kind of just who you are. And you can change your accent or your tones and stuff. And you can do that in your writing. But at the end of the day, your brand voice is the personality that’s found throughout your messaging and your communications. It’s the words you’re using, and how you’re using them. 

And that translates to obviously the connections that you’re making. That’s what words are for. How you communicate and connect with people and how you put yourself out into the world. So expectations of you all revolve around your brand voice. And of course the visuals are so important, but I always say, you can be posting all the hot ass selfies of you. Bikini pics on the beach, you are looking fine. I will be the first to like and comment on them. But without a caption, no one’s necessarily going to scroll, stop and look into your eyes and and say, She gets me I should go check out her link in bio.

Cait: Totally. Oh my god. It’s so so true. And I think that like one of the things that I mean and I totally want to jam on all things strategy and cultivating a voice and all of that, but before we even do that, I feel like a hangout for a lot of entrepreneurs is being bold enough and being willing enough. And I know this is something that you teach and preach on and do for your clients as well, in such a powerful way, but I feel like there’s almost this fear of stepping into this bold, big voice. 

It’s almost, this is something that as a business coach that I hear as well from clients, but I imagine it’s even more exacerbated as a copywriter this feeling of Who am I to have this big bold opinion? Who am I to have a really defined personality? Even if your brand voice isn’t loud, and extroverted? And maybe you can dispel that myth for us as well. That having a defined brand voice means you’re really loud and extroverted. But I think for a lot of people, having a voice that is super defined can feel scary, because it brings up a lot of doubt, a lot of fear of rejection, a lot of, is this gonna work? So can you talk to us a little bit about what you find in working with clients and working with students inside of your programs in your trainings? What do you find holds a lot of entrepreneurs back from developing that really powerful brand voice? And how do you help them to overcome that?

How To Amplify Your Brand Voice

Mackenzie: Yeah, I love this question. So I’m an introvert in real life. I say in real life because on the internet, I feel like, if the cameras off, no one’s looking at me, I can jam out. Whatever. I’m wearing face mask and all, but I’m in the last round of my group copy coaching program, master your messaging Academy. Someone asked the question for the first time, they’re like, I love your personality and your brand but like, I can’t do that. I’m not loud. I don’t say the F word every other five minutes. Like you do that kind of thing. 

It’s so true. People think because if they’re quiet, or they don’t have these really polar personality traits, that they can’t have a brand voice. And the whole thing about brand voice is just, it sounds so lame and cheesy, but it’s like taking what makes you you and just amplifying the fuck out of it. So if you’re quiet, but you love a good Cardi B giph or something like that, fucking do it. Tell us all about that. Tell us every day. Share all the giphs. 

Just taking what makes you thrive, what gives you all that energy and that personality and that power. And capitalizing on that. The whole point kind of brand voice besides like making those connections is to make them with the right people. So that’s another thing that people say to me, they’re like, well, what if I don’t want to scare anybody away? What if they don’t like cussing and I want to say ass or something. Then those aren’t necessarily the right clients for you. 

I don’t know about you guys, but I got into this business number one, well not number one, not necessarily numerical order but to dictate my own life, my schedule, my time, who I’m working with, what I’m doing. That and to make a huge impact. And to do that, that involves working with people that I truly vibe with. That I get. That I like their story, it inspires me and my story inspires them and we have the same values. And that comes down to being able to attract those people being your fullest self. 

Your competitor can be over here with her big personality attracting people all day long and that’s great. That’s Brittany there. But if you come out with your authentic self and you’re speaking in your own brand voice some of those people are gonna be like oh like I love you. So there’s always going to be clients and prospects and people readers in general, that are gonna vibe with different people. And it’s when you step into your brand voice and own the fuck out of who you are, is when you have those not just return clients and loyal brand followers, but it’s those people that are like, not price shoppers. 

So they’re coming to you and they’re like, I don’t care what the investment is, I know I need to work with you. You are the one I want to work with. Let’s do this. I might have to save up or I might have to do a payment plan but you are the one. Rather than people who are like well let me ask Brittany her investment. Let me think about it. It’s those people that are stoked as hell to work with you.

Cait: Oh my god, I love that so much and yes, so I feel like you need to make t-shirts for your brand Mac that are like Authentic Ass Copy. I just love that so much. So it’s so true. I think that we have to be it. It’s like anything in life, right? And especially in business, if we want to be the one for someone, we have to be willing to not be the one for a lot of other people. And I think that what you’re describing is turning up the volume on who you actually are. I think that’s such a beautiful way to dispel that myth. It’s not about conforming your voice to be the exact cadence or rhythm of your business coaches or Sally seven figures. It’s turning up the volume on who you actually are. That’s what’s going to allow the people who are the right match for you to work with you to fall in love with you to buy everything that you put out. That’s so, so freaking powerful. 

I’m curious for you, okay, this might be like a little bit of a transition, but I think it’s actually still super relevant. Can we talk about copy on websites? Because I feel like when I am working with clients, as a business coach, this question literally always comes up. Like, hey, how important is it for me to have a website, but be like, do should I write my copy myself? Oh, my gosh, I feel like I want to pull out all my hair having to write this copy I need to write. Sometimes I have clients who –not as much recently, just because I’m working with women who are more and more established in business. 

But a couple of years ago, I was working with a lot of really new entrepreneurs in a private capacity. I would review their work. And sometimes there would be just like pages and pages and pages of copy for the home page. And so can you talk to us from a copywriter who literally has written for eight-figure brands before and just knows her shit inside and out about what makes copy really pop on a website. Some of the biggest mistakes you see people making and like the tips and tools that you both implement for yourself for your clients. But when you’re coaching people on copy, what you tell them is really important to think about.

How To Write Your Website Copy

Mackenzie: Yeah, I love this question too, because I feel like people think –and this used to be me when I first started –my side business is like a business to business technology copywriter, I was like I can’t make a single move until my website is perfect. And maybe for me as a copywriter. That makes a ton of sense. But I’ve learned more and more to get into the messy action shit. And if you aren’t sure, especially on what your offers are. First of all, you need to know who the fuck you’re talking to. Who’s your audience? Who is your dream client? 

But if you’re still playing around with your offers, if your processes soul shifting, don’t hire a copywriter yet, don’t. Because when you do, you want to invest. It really makes all the difference in the world. For anybody who’s hired a team or contract worker, the price makes the difference you pay for what you get. So I say, save that money, save that time, messy action, buy a template, I’ve got website templates for coaches on my website, buy a template like that, and just whip out something quick that you know you’re following the template. 

So the basic general guidelines on how much to include and things like that is what to talk about. And then once you get everything super solidified is when I say take it to a copywriter and say work that magic, make it gold. Because your website is your little corner of the internet. Instagram is cool. But like you don’t lay out all your services. They’re in a single post. Everybody knows to immediately click the link if they want a page on your website. And it’s just honestly really where you can show the fuck off. That’s where you show your shit. And my favorite compliments I get are people like on my website that are like, I don’t know how I found you, but your website is speaking to me. 

The Biggest Mistake You’re Making In Your Web Copy

So the biggest mistakes, I would say as far as website copy, that I see across the board, especially with copy coaching clients. I would say one is just too much content. And this is something I was even guilty of at first. Like when I first made my first b2b tech website for myself, I was like, I have so much I want to say I don’t want to leave a single thing unanswered. Maybe for certain industries, that’s the way to go. But especially with coaching and service providers, and consultants and course creators and things like that. Your website is the starting point, most of us have the option to get on Discovery calls. And if you’re booking higher ticket packages, you’re not trying to sell through your website, you’re trying to get them on a call. That’s what you’re trying to sell is the concept call, a discovery call, whatever you want to call it, get them on the phone. That’s where you vibe and you tell them all those details that you really wanted to put on the site. But we have such limited attention spans. I know it’s true for me. I am a skimmer of all skimmers. If you don’t have one, sub headline, bullets, and bold like I’m Audi 5000. And I’m not looking back.

Cait: So true. And I think that’s such a great myth to dispel of more is more, it’s actually less is more and having a skimmable site, is so important. For everyone listening, think about the times that you actually look at a website or read a website or you like forensically looking at and reading every single word? Probably not. You’re probably skimming for high-level information. That’s just what our eyes do on our electronic devices. That’s just how we’re programmed to take in content. And so I think it’s such a powerful reminder of like, Hey, we don’t need like 7500 novels. 

If you’re telling your brand story and touching on these really important pieces, we don’t need to know every single shift of your internal reality at every single day of every single month of every single year that got you where you are. Give us those highlights, give it into us to us in skimmable format. That’s so powerful. And I think it’s also really helpful what you shared Mac about, working it to a point yourself and with the help of templates and things like that. And we will definitely include those because I get this question all the time. So I’m really happy to share it with our listeners as a resource, your copywriting templates for website copy. 

But I think that was really helpful as well to get it to a place yourself and then bring it to a copywriter to really help you make it pop and make it come to life. I’m curious how you find and this could be for website, copy sales pages, social copy, blogs, whatever that is. But when you have people that are wanting to work with you who are talking about copywriting feeling really hard for them, or they feel like they can never say what they really want to say and maybe this is more question around like writer’s block, or this kind of blocked-ness. I know for a lot of business owners, content writing is something that feels really, really challenging. I’m curious what you would say to those people to get unstuck and get into a rhythm with writing copy that really moves the needle forward for business from a marketing perspective.

How To Unblock Writers Block

Mackenzie: Yeah, so that’s a good question, because that brings up the difference between copywriting and content writing. And I think there’s a lot of confusion around that. Copywriting is your sales pages, those things with a call to action to convert. So whether that conversion is sign up for my email list on my landing page or my website, there’s that conversion at the end. And the goal with content writing, like blogs or email newsletters, is value and brand awareness. So those things that you’re not necessarily pitching anything. 

Regardless, I think to get over that hump of well, What the fuck do I write now? I’m staring at a blank cursor. My first thing is, I love like having a bank of prompts. Whether it’s for my email newsletters or Instagrams or things like that, just like things that come to me over time. Questions I’ve answered for people or questions I’ve asked myself or thoughts I’ve had, and keeping those somewhere to refer to when you’re feeling stuck. And then also having a general format. So for blogs headline, intro paragraph, we’re covering this and overview statement, and then this paragraph, like more than just the format of heading subheading kind of breaking down where you’re putting your shit and how. Even with social captions there is a headline and making sure the last question, or the last line is a call to action or a question for engagement. Um, but all depending, starting with what is my goal for this post this email, this website page, and then going from there, reverse engineering if you will. 

Cait: Oh, I love that so much. And I think that’s such a helpful reminder of having some of those bullet points as springboards to catalyze your thinking and your writing process and then taking it from there. That’s so so good. This is sort of like a selfish question. But I think it’s an interesting one because I think that for a lot of people, there’s almost this feeling of like, Oh, well if I’m gonna really step into these big brand shoes or be this voice. My voice has to say the same all of the time. And I don’t know if this is a question that you get but like, oh, but if I start talking like this, what if I change?

I’ll give a really specific example. I know for me, I almost had this like brand identity crisis when I left Bali. I used to be this barefoot goddess living in Bali laptop lifestyle, freedom was my jam. That was  my boy. In reality that shifted when I moved to the states. Number one, I moved back to living in America. But then number two, especially when I became a mom, it was like, all of a sudden my brand voice because my brand changed, my brand voice really had to change. And one thing that I hear a lot as a business coach is, I’m really afraid that if I start to change the way that I speak to my audience or some of the personality traits that I embody, that I have to either stay the same or it’s not okay for my brand voice to grow and evolve. 

And I just wondered if you could speak to that a little bit Mac, because I think that branding and cultivating, especially the voice and the content component of branding, not the graphics and fonts and hex codes, component of branding. This is a place that I think there’s a lot of confusion around and a lot of entrepreneurs put themselves in a very kind of self-limiting box, that just isn’t necessary. So I’m curious what you would say to that about the evolution of a brand voice and how to let that happen for you in a way that that is easy and still magnetizes clients?

The Evolution Of Your Brand Voice

Mackenzie: Yeah, so first and foremost, your brand voice does need to be consistent. You’ve got your voice, and then your tone, which will depend or vary, depending on the context and the situation. But at the same time, your brand voice is your personality, it’s who you are. Let’s be real, you’re not, hopefully, staying the same through however many years. You are evolving, you are changing and adapting to your space and all that good shit and your brand voice will change with that. I think as long as you’re keeping it consistent. You’re not like, hey, on Instagram, I sound like this. But on Facebook, you best believe I’m a different batch. Or like from week to week. As long as it’s consistent and it shows that change of like, I’m evolving. This is where I’m at, this is where I’m going. 

What I always tell my Master Messaging Academy students, or just copy coaching students in general, is when I think about brand voice, it’s not just okay, who are you right now? It’s who do you want to become? Who is that person that you see in the distance? That’s like, Fuck, yeah, that’s my girl. That’s what I want to be. That’s what I want to embody, and kind of writing for her. And while that will change over time, the values, the purpose, the underlying vibes are going to be the same. So as long as you’re staying true to yourself, and that sounds so lame, but it’s true, but staying true to their own voice and living it and writing it and preaching it to the max instead of half-assing anything. I think you’re golden. Because half-assed thing is just one thing and copy and messaging that just does not work. So you either have to go big on all of you or go home and get a desk job or something.

How To Be Authentic In Your Copy

Cait: Oh my gosh, is so good. I love this so much. And this actually brings up another thing that I wanted to jam. But it’s so perfectly connected to what we’re talking about Mac and that’s like, defining what it even means to be authentic. So we hear, have an authentic voice be authentically you. As long as you’re true to yourself, then that’s the most important thing. 

I think that it might seem so counterintuitive, and so basic AF but I think that this idea of sharing authentically or cultivating an authentic voice, feels like again, just another thing that we are constantly outsourcing our power to. We’re looking for, we’re watching YouTube tutorials on how to be authentic or how to do this and how to do that. And it might seem ironic that I’m literally asking you how do people do this? But I’m hoping that it’d be and I know a little bit of your philosophy but what would you say to someone who’s like I just don’t know how to say what I want to say in an authentically me way. From a technical perspective, are there any exercises that you give to clients to help them unlock and unleash that inner authenticity that is just replicable, unrepeatable uniquely them?

Mackenzie:  Yeah. So I get asked all the time about how to write copy with personality and how to write copy with personality that sells. I think they’re kind of two different directions of conversation. But I struggled with that question. I ended up thinking about it and working on that. How can I answer this? I made a freebie called the copy on the rocks workbook, which is how to find your personality, right with personality. 

So I think it comes down to a lot of different things kind of better explored in that workbook. Your main values and what is your brand promise? And even a brand voice audit, like what are your top performing posts? The posts that you feel most confident in? And then taking a look at the language okay? What kind of mindset was I in for these? What words am I seeing over and over again? How those posts that you feel really fucking good about and that other people feel good about is what you want to replicate. No need to keep reinventing the wheel for that necessarily, if you don’t have to

But for me, I wasn’t immediately like something that I was able to just put myself into when I first got on Instagram. Because in my personal life, I really don’t use Instagram that much. And when I was in the b2b tech room, I wasn’t on Instagram. And then suddenly, I’m working with coaches and female entrepreneurs. And I’m like, okay, Instagram, and I found myself legit ass writing out a post that I wanted to post. And then going back and taking out all the F bombs and taking out any sexual innuendos or anything that makes it my voice and makes it in my opinion, fun, like fun for me to write fun for me to vibe with people over. 

And when I finally was like, Oh, my God, this is a problem. Well, first how it happened is I let an F bomb slip, and someone commented, and they’re like, Wow, you really aren’t afraid of using the F word in business posts, are you? And I was like, yeah, Mitch. So that was the shifting point where I’m like, I’m not now honey. So that’s when I was like, do it. Like, now I write what I fucking want to write if people don’t like it, unfollow me. There are millions of people on there. And I know you will find someone else to follow that you vibe with if it’s not me, I do not mind. So I sit down and just write out what is on my mind. And now when I go back to tweak it, it’s okay, where can I cut verbiage that’s repetitive? Or where can I tighten it up type thing. Now, it’s not curbing my personality, because I have this idea of you can’t be professional and have a personality. Now I know. It’s like, I’m professional as hell. I might say fuck, but like, I get some serious results. I have a shit ton of fun doing it. My clients are amazing. I’m as professional as it gets in that sense. So if I want to talk the way I want to talk while I’m getting there, so be it.

Cait:  Oh my gosh, yes. Say it again. For the people. This is so good. I love that. Well, we will definitely put the link to Copy On The Rocks. Also, is that weird that that made me want a margarita? I’m like, Oh, that’s Oh, yeah. Like extra salt on everyone, please? Yes. Okay, so we are gonna put that link in the show notes. Everyone go download that immediately. I love that so much. And I think that’s such a great segue. 

Copy That Performs

That brought up two different lines of conversation about the results, about how copy sells about how okay, so there’s professional over here, which is this stuff? Yes, the LinkedIn kind of like 1998 school photo vibe of professional or what we used to think of professional. And then there’s like, what’s actually professional and that might mean saying, fuck, that might mean marketing photos of you in a bikini. That might mean whatever. All of this stuff that this outdated notion of business and professionality that frankly, I think a lot of us inherited but just is not true. And it’s certainly not relevant for the space of digital marketing, personal branding, personal development, entrepreneurship, right? In this female entrepreneur world, it’s like everything’s on the table. So I’m curious for you like what you see in terms of whether they are sort of insights or I guess patterns, or trends that you’re noticing for copy that performs the best and brands that perform the best? Like what are the similarities that you’re seeing in terms of the results that your clients are getting that are common denominators other than the fact that they all hire you?

Mackenzie: I think the biggest one is like, the authentic brand voice and personality. When my mom made an Instagram for her dog, God bless her. I finally after years, let her be friends with me on Facebook. And I use both only for business with my Facebook and Instagram. And I talk the way I do with my friends and I am the way I am with my friends and I would get texts from her all the time. I still do that are like I just think it would sound better if you did not say the F word or bad words. And at first, like let’s be real, I’ve got some mommy issues. I’m like, I want her to approve what I’m doing.

It was a hard pill for me to swallow that all of these things that my mom has said is a bad idea. Or it’s outdated because we’re evolving. The online world is a brand new fucking place like anything as possible. And if I want to make my living, getting people results and working with people I love while doing it as the full fucking me, that’s what I’m choosing to do. That’s where I’m happiest. So you don’t necessarily have to do that if that’s not what makes you happy. But at the end of the day, that’s where I see the big difference in my clients. And when I work with clients, one on one for my VIP copywriting days, which is my only, like dumper you offer. That’s where the whole process comes in. I call the brand breakdown questionnaire and the brand breakthrough. So looking at your audience not just demographics, psychographics schools limitations, looking at your offer, your story, and all of those things, how they tie together. 

So yes, your personality is absolutely key. How does that tie back in with the people that you’re speaking to? What they want? How you can relate to them, the emotions that you want them to feel. So once you kind of like RCL little bits and pieces everywhere, once you take like a string and needle and you tie them or you loop them all together. That’s when you’re fucking unstoppable. Like, that’s when I get people the happiest clients that are like, this sounds exactly like me, but better, and it fucking sells and my clients know it’s attracting dream clients, not those randos that I’m like, should I secretly hope she doesn’t book this? But it’s not just about getting results. At least for me, it’s about getting results that you want to see like making money, making an impact for people that you want to see the impact. Happy money. I call it happy money. 

But like happy money, the money where people are like super happy to pay you where it feels like a win-win where it creates a relationship and a result. It’s not just something you can brag about on Instagram, but something that genuinely feels good for everyone. 

Cait: Yes, I love that so much. Oh, my gosh, well, you’re making me want to go write all day. Right now. This is so so freakin good. Talk to us about what you have, how can people work with you stay connected to with what you’ve got going on? I think you have a workshop coming up. Is that right? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Mackenzie: Yes. So I am. So frickin stumped. Brand voice is something I talk about all the time, but people very much so struggle with actually putting that together. How do I form this signature brand voice? How do I implement it? How do I do that consistently? How do I do that with competence? 

So I created a brand voice workshop called Build Your Brand Voice Workshop: 5 Steps To Becoming The Cardi B of Your Industry because we all love a good cardi B. And that’s a two-day virtual workshop that is happening March 15th and 16th. I am so excited about it. It’s basically everything you need to develop your signature brand voice which you need to build your whole damn Empire. 

I could not be more stoked. You’ll learn all the things to actually build it to implement it. And then there’s the brand voice vault with brand messaging guidelines and brand voice audit. So all the things you need over time, not only for you to use to keep that signature brand voice going strong and just growing but also for your team. So if you’re outsourcing, you need your VA to write something or you do hire a copywriter. That’s all Gucci.

Cait: Oh my gosh, I love that so much. And that’s actually I wanted to say about that. So we just hired a Social Media Manager but we’re always adding new people to our team and just refining our processes. And I think just a huge part of scaling. It’s something that literally every person who’s ever touched our social media who’s ever supported us with anything on the back end who’s ever made updates to website whatever, they always ask do you have a brand voice document like so that there is this sense of cohesion and I think especially as you scale having that kind of central hub for your brand is just so so important. So that sounds freaking amazing. We’re gonna put the link Did you say the date and time already?

Mackenzie: The date is March 15 and 16th. That’s two 90 minutes sessions and they are both at 12 noon Eastern slash 9am Pacific.

Cait: Perfect love it love it love it. We’re gonna put the links to both of those in the show notes. If you I always ask this question at the end Mac What if you had to give one piece of advice for all of our boss babes on the rise who are listening to this podcast? What would it be? No pressure.

Mackenzie:  I know I love it. I already know my answer but really quickly also if you want to register for those who register replays will be available if you can’t make it and you’ll still get all the goodies and the brand voice guidelines and shit but my answer to that question. I said it earlier. But with your copy and your messaging yes but with your brand and your business. As a whole, don’t have asked that shit and I’m not saying that in the way of like, if you’re going to work today work 12 hours and don’t take any breaks. I mean with the being you always so lame I need to find a better way to set the ass you doing that to just your fullest because that is really not just what makes the differences in results as far as money and client results and impact but it’s like your own fucking happiness. It’s what you enjoy doing. It’s what’s going to get you to the next day looking forward to it so you’re not burning out. Artists cannot preach enough like don’t have to ask yourself do that shit to the extreme.

Cait: Yes, I love it so much. Oh my gosh, I’m so inspired Mac I’m sure everyone listening is so inspired. Where can people stay connected with you follow along with you just be connected to you in all of the ways and work? Yes.

Mackenzie: So hit me up on Instagram at MacKenzieBFleming. Send me a DM and say hi so I know to follow you bac. Also through there the link in my bio you can find my website, my facebook group, the conversion corner copywriting for coaches and consultants. I do live trainings there every week. But Instagram you know don’t come expecting not to see any felines because I post a shit ton of cat pics in my stories and real so just be forewarned about that.

Cait: I love that so good. Mackenzie, thank you so much for coming on the show today. This was so so important. And I just so appreciate all of your wisdom and magic.

Mackenzie: Yay. Thank you for having me. I had so much fun